How to counter MMM as P?(Philosophical Discussion)

[AeThErOs]

Hmm... When I play as toss and I see I play vs a terran, I assume instantly they go MMM. And except for half an instance (where they FE/Bunker rush, then went into MMM), I was always correct. I win only 40% of my games vs Terran, and these wins only occur because I just had better macro than them. Those 40% of Terran players were maybe on 2 bases by the time I expanded into my 5th (yay for harrassing ) and I won just because they didn't have enough men. But assuming an equal playing field, early game their marauders kill just about anything except for zealot/sentry which ruins the stalker count, disturbing the ground force to defend the collosus...

Then in midgame, they get their first viking out, with a bunch of stimmed marines and marauders, and you might as well gg unless you have an army twice their supply...

Lategame... well lets just say that no matter what they win -_- I have literally a 0.5% winrate against terrans whose games go over 20 minutes long. Yes, I've played 200 of those kind of games and lost every single one of them except for 1 (where he misclicked his stim and only stimmed 1 marine and 1 marauder LOLOL) just because a simmed unit is like twice as powerful so a 200 pop MMM ball would be more like 300 pop in size... with medivacs to heal and an ever growing economy. -_-

So in the early-midgame process, they're busy getting out their medivacs, trying to press "c" and realizing terrans don't have chrono boost, etc. etc. and sooner or later they are stormed by my immortal, collosus, and stalker mix. But the air units are just too strong, the viking just coming out in time with the units killing the stalkers, the medivacs healing the injured who are killing the stalkers who are trying to kill the medivacs -_- and its just luck from there.

I guess you could 2 gate zealot rush them, but that's cheesy and I'm not a cheese noob

[ryanfmc]

hmm, i guess the best way is to hide ur collosus before he attacks you, most terrans dun produce vikings during early game and u can get an early collo out or two to help defend against terran bioball rushes,

and make stargate about the time you
1)get ur 2nd expo half saturated
2) when they noticed you are producing collosus
3) when you noticed they are producing vikings.

and make void rays out of ur stargate, normally, i would stop producing collo if i have about 4-5 collo, den i start focusing more on stalkers, sentries and voids.

as for the formation, try seperating your void rays with ur main army, one left one right, den use voids to focus fire on vikings, if the terran is noob the vikings might start to attack your void rays, if they don't its still ok, micro your collo abit, using stalkers and zealots to block the bioball from attacking your collo and using voids to pick off vikings. dont forget to use guardian shield on collo as it reduces ALOT of dmg from those damned vikings, and that is pretty much to deal with it, I tried it, and it works most of the time when i have more voids den vikings XD

[AeThErOs]

umm... "get your 2nd expo half saturated" never happens for me. When I expo, I train the probes out of my first nexus, so even though for 100 seconds my first is over saturated, by the time that's done the 2nd expo is almost fully saturated, like 90% excluding the gas, which I will then get. If I hide my collosus, then I'm suck playing from 2 gates against an MMM player. -_- I like the stargate idea, I actually use that a lot but on my 3rd base, maybe I'll try 2nd base these next few games... but what I like to do is try to go stalker/collosus, and void ray hidden, and in the huge battle I send out my vr to the enemy min line, whilst trying to warp in more from my various warp prisms everywhere around the map. I already use just about everything else you said there... But the stargate is probably what makes the difference.

[ryanfmc]

lol, by hiding the collosus i juz mean hiding them from the scans, i found out most terrans will scan your base before attacking you, and that is pretty annoying, so just hide ur robotics bay somewhere let say at the corner of ur base, and ur collo too, right after they scan ur main army, bring ur collo back into your army and when they attack you, and they see the collosus, they will either run for their life, or continue attacking you, if they continue to attack you, then just vaporize his entire army and just counter attack him on his expos for some damange =)
p.s: I hate terran scans, that is why i try to use it as often against them =.=

[AeThErOs]

LOL, you know the phrase "a scan costs 270 mins"?

[ryanfmc]

lol, i nt sure the cooldown of the scans, but still, i hate em, =.= its like peeping without being there =.=, lol

[mchlee]

i go vrs and immortals against mmm, almost always works

[AeThErOs]

they don't transition into viking/bc? or are you in noob league lol no offense... mmm is just an opening build tbh, then the rest is transitioning into whatever they try to do to counter it. Then they go back to mmm when they've transitioned away.

I do like the idea of immortal/vr though.

umm... tbh you still need more macro to be able to keep up with the stim, because stim largens the gap between macros and medivac increases your macro a whole crapload (macro=overpowering=/=more units (counters)) so even though you have counters later on when they stim at perfect timing unless u're in bronze/silver the stim loosens the immortal's hardened shields via marauders and the vr's die from stimmed marines, then both focus on the immortals.

my point is that I can't think of an actual counter to MMM, just a few builds that kinda work against it, but you need more upgrades than them, or some kind of forcefield micro, etc. etc. you need more skill than pressing a, d, b, s, x, r, v, f, s, e, and c. (yes, those are all the hotkeys needed to do mmm. like, that's all. and that's including the expanding, the mule-calling, etc. etc.)

[ryanfmc]

dun worry voids do well with vikings and bc =)....if you get about 12 void rays (if can get more) den you shouldn't need to worry about the air units of terrans, voids are scared of marines though, so you should get collo to support it about 4 (my favorite number of colo) i will get 2more if enemy gets vikings....

[AeThErOs]

12 voids? I can get 6 bc and yamato my way through them. Or, for that matter, 24 vikings and poke micro. But yeah, I agree with the 4 colo against MMM, but remember that it should not be you always getting the same amount of colo and like some matchups because the colo is good, you should get different amounts of colo for each matchup and like the colo number. in PvP against a mass gateway unit guy ALWAYS as much colo as you can from robo making up half of your eco. Put short, against a mass gateway unit always put at least half of your resources into making colo, and just keep on making more until they either lose or get phoenix, in which in that case you should mass small units, hoping you get a little more advantage. Mass stalkers, zealots, templar, a few more phoenix just to annoy them do well too and a mommaship is the exception to this rule, mommaships help a lot vs phoenix's if the phoenix run into the mommaship especially if you have your own phoenix, even if you only have about half of their numbers lol

[ryanfmc]

lol i found out mumship is good for supprise attack XD or defence, just place one at ur base or fly it into their main mass recall and boom! there goes their army/ base

not 12voids, lol about 3voids per collo XD if can get more =) VOIDS ROCK!!!! i like them alot XD, actually i feel phoenix are nt that useful, i only like their graviton beam which is good for killing queens and most importantly SEIGE tanks that always in my way =.= oh and also it is good at dealing with banshees too, but i really dont see how it do well against mutas, people say it is always good against mutas, i tried it, and it kinda sucks, i rather use stalkers against them

[AeThErOs]

lol ryan, the mutas have range 3 and 0.01 less speed than the phoenix. the phoenix has range 6 and can attack whilst moving. stalkers are too slow unless you have blink which puts them at danger if the enemy goes muta ling. you ever heard of liquid huk going mummaship rush? LOLOL

[ryanfmc]

lol...maybe i am nt good at using phoenix >.<, but ms rush i used many times against zerg, sometimes even turned my game from losing to win XD but i used it with my stalkers+zealots most of the time

[AeThErOs]

yeah ms rush works when you only get one gas, you use all the gas you have on the mommaship whilst making zealots. after that, when the momma is queued, chrono as much as possible and then make stalkers. preferabely off 2 gates.
and phoenix vs muta you send the phoenix at the muta, if the muta pull back just let the phoenix follow, if th emuta suddenly go forward you ask the phoenix to move back. the phoenix will attack whilst moving and its faster too so its basically kiting vs mutas... and its 10 damage VS LIGHT 20 EPIC AWESOME 6 SHOT MUTA POWER!!

[AeThErOs]

wow... I just stayed up all night (until 4 am) perfecting a build... HOLY SHIT PHOENIX CHARGELOT 9 pylon 13 gateway 14 gas 15 gas 16 pylon 18 cyber 19 zealot (chrono) 22 sentry 23 twi pull workers off 1 gas (3 left) asap charge asap wg chrono boost twi more and more zealots expo at 7:15 make 2 stargate put workers back mass phoenix when you have the gas don't make gas at expo don't attack wait at big, open space where they have to attack you!! awesome strat!! a 150 pop mmm guy attacked me and I had 100 pop only of chargelot/phoenix and I won whilst only losing 8 pop... HOLY SHIT BRO

this is my new anti mmm build.